HEARING OF THE TRIBUNAL OF INQUIRY INTO COMPLAINTS CONCERNING SOME GARDAI IN THE DONEGAL DIVISION HEARD BEFORE THE HONOURABLE MR. JUSTICE FREDERICK MORRIS ON MONDAY, 27TH MARCH 2006 - DAY 429 (MODULE 6) ARREST AND DETENTION OF KATRINA BROLLY 429(6) I hereby certify the following to be a true and accurate transcript of my shorthand notes. _____________________ Stenographer 429(6) INDEX WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE NO'S DIRECT - CROSS - CROSS - CROSS - CROSS- CROSS - CROSS - CROSS - CROSS - CROSS - CROSS - 1 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY, 2 27TH MARCH 2006 AT 10.30A.M: 3 4 CHAIRMAN: Yes Mr. McDermott. 5 MR. McDERMOTT: Sir, the order of business 6 is somewhat changed this 7 morning. It was envisaged that Mrs. Brolly would be 8 the first witness to be called, but as you will see, 9 sir, there have been developments which will delay 10 that, probably till 2p.m.. It is proposed to have a 11 further opening statement in relation to this module 12 because of further developments. 13 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 14 MR. McDERMOTT: There have been, sir, 15 important developments 16 since the opening statement of the detention module 17 on 21st March, last Tuesday, and these have enormous 18 significance for the evidence which you are about to 19 hear, especially in respect of the detentions of 20 Mrs. Roisin McConnell and Mrs. Katrina Brolly. Their 21 accounts of ill treatment during their respective 22 detentions were flatly and completely denied by those 23 against whom they made allegations, principally 24 Detective Garda John Dooley and Detective Sergeant 25 John White. This was until the statement made by 26 Detective Garda Dooley on 14th October of 2005. 27 28 As with all such material, attempts are made by the 29 Tribunal to obtain a response from those who are 4 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 directly concerned or implicated in any statement 2 that emerges in the course of the inquiry. As 3 pointed out in last week's opening statement, the 4 Tribunal awaited the detailed response of any person 5 referred to in that statement but especially that of 6 Detective Sergeant White and Garda Joan Gallagher. 7 The immediate response of Detective Sergeant White 8 through his solicitors, PA Dorrian and Company, by 9 letter dated 13th March 2006, to Detective Garda 10 Dooley's statement which he had received by that 11 time, was that "The allegations involving our client 12 are totally denied." The letter sought any statements 13 in relation to civil actions which had been 14 instituted by the two ladies and this was to enable 15 our client, said the solicitors, to submit his 16 statement. It was anticipated perhaps by your 17 counsel that the further statement in light of that 18 letter would contain perhaps a further denial of the 19 allegations, but following the opening statement of 20 21st March, on the afternoon of Friday, 24th March 21 2006, it was indicated to the solicitor to the 22 Tribunal that a statement would be submitted by 23 Detective Sergeant White, in which, I suppose to coin 24 a phrase, he would be taking a certain course in 25 relation to the allegations made by Mrs. McConnell 26 and Mrs. Brolly, and in which he would accept as true 27 much of the content of Detective Garda John Dooley's 28 statement of 14th October 2005. That statement was 29 received by facsimile at the Tribunal's office late 5 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 on Saturday afternoon and it's likely that the 2 parties to this module and those concerned, 3 particularly in the other mini modules concerning 4 Mrs. McConnell and in relation to the alleged taking 5 of interviews, together with Mrs. Brolly, will wish 6 to consider this statement, as will other persons 7 named in it. 8 9 The allegations made by Mrs. McConnell and 10 Mrs. Brolly have been rehearsed, sir, in sufficient 11 detail in the recent opening statement and it is not 12 intended now to repeat those allegations. It is 13 however perhaps useful and important to put Detective 14 Sergeant White's statement in context though before 15 dealing with its contents. 16 17 Heretofore Detective Sergeant White has made two 18 statements which have already been distributed to the 19 parties and have been referred to in the opening 20 statements of November 2002 and of last week, though 21 not perhaps in very great detail. 22 23 In the first statement on the matter made by 24 Detective Sergeant White, he dealt in a very 25 perfunctory way with his treatment of the two women 26 whilst in detention. This statement was a formal 27 witness statement with the usual caption included 28 upon it in these matters, which reads: 29 6 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 "I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and 2 belief and that I make this statement knowing that if it is tendered in 3 evidence that I will be liable to prosecution if I have stated anything 4 in it which I knew to be false or do not believe to be true." 5 6 7 Subsequently a very full and complete statement 8 concerning a large number of allegations made against 9 Detective Sergeant White by members of what might be 10 regarded as the extended McBrearty and Quinn 11 families, was submitted to Chief Superintendent Carey 12 in the course of his inquiry into various complaints 13 made by them to the Garda Complaints Board. This 14 statement is 36 pages in length, it was four months 15 in preparation and Mrs. McConnell's complaints about 16 Detective Sergeant White and others are dealt with at 17 pages 19 to 23 of the statement. It also deals with 18 her solicitor's letter of complaint of 10th December 19 1996, it denies all allegations in trenchant form. 20 21 It is perhaps instructive to quote from that 22 statement to put the later statement in context. 23 He says: 24 25 "In relation to the complaint of Mrs. Roisin McConnell, number B2CD 1032 26 of '97..." 27 28 29 The number assigned by the Garda Complaints Board: 7 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 2 "...I wish to state that I arrested Mrs. McConnell at 8.18a.m. on 4th 3 December 1996, at William Street, Raphoe, Co. Donegal, on suspicion of 4 being an accessory after the fact to the murder of Richard Barron on 5 14/10/96. I have already made a statement of evidence in relation to 6 the criminal investigation into the murder of Richard Barron on 14/10/96, 7 and I attach a copy of this statement which I have marked JW14." 8 9 10 That is the statement to which I have earlier 11 referred. 12 13 "I understand from perusal of 14 Mr. Sweeney's letter..." 15 16 17 That is Mrs. McConnell's solicitor: 18 19 "...of 23rd December 1996, that he makes reference to the atrocious manner 20 in which Mrs. McConnell was treated while in Garda custody. He does not 21 make any reference to Mrs. McConnell's demeanour during his lengthy visit to 22 her at 11.55a.m. that morning. He does not state whether Mrs. McConnell had 23 any complaint to make or not at that time. 24 After Mr. Sweeney attended Letterkenny 25 Garda Station that morning and visited his client, I informed him that we were 26 in the process of taking a written memo of interview with Mrs. McConnell. 27 Mr. Sweeney requested that he remain in the interview room while this interview 28 was recommenced until its termination. This was a most unusual request but I 29 agreed to same as our interview with Mrs. McConnell was entirely in 8 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 accordance with the Garda custody regulations, already referred to. 2 Detective Garda Dooley and myself commenced questioning Mrs. McConnell in 3 the presence of Mr. Sweeney. At the termination of the interview I read it 4 over to her in the presence of her solicitor and I asked her if it was 5 correct. She replied "to my knowledge, yes." I asked her if she wished to 6 sign this memo. She replied, no. I asked her if she had any reason for not 7 signing it. She replied, I gave you a statement before. I asked her why she 8 did not wish to sign it if the memo was the truth and I asked her if she could 9 give me a reason for not signing it. She replied, do I have to sign it. I 10 assured her that she did not have to sign it. Both Detective Garda Dooley 11 and myself signed the memo as witnesses. I asked Mr. Sweeney if he 12 wished to sign it as a witness, he declined. The time at this stage was 13 11.34a.m.. 14 Mr. Sweeney then asked me for a copy of that memo of interview and any other 15 statements that Mrs. McConnell had made, he was adamant that he was 16 entitled to them at that stage by law. I informed him that I would leave the 17 interview room and discuss the matter with Superintendent John Fitzgerald. I 18 discussed the matter with Superintendent Fitzgerald, who 19 instructed me that I was not to give copies of the statement or memos of 20 interview taken from Mrs. McConnell to her solicitor at that stage and to 21 inform him that he should apply for them in writing as was formal 22 procedure. I returned to the interview room and informed Mr. Sweeney of 23 Superintendent Fitzgerald's decision. Mr. Sweeney did not have any complaints 24 with our interview of Mrs. McConnell. 25 I must state at this stage that Mr. Sweeney is incorrect in his letter 26 when stating that I promised to give him a copy of Mrs. McConnell's memo of 27 interview prior to reading it over to him. I have never supplied a statement 28 taken from a prisoner to their solicitor during the period of 29 detention and I could not possibly have promised Mr. Sweeney that I would do 9 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 this. I only discussed the matter with Superintendent Fitzgerald because of 2 Mr. Sweeney's insistence that he was entitled to same. In fact, I was being 3 more than cooperative with Mr. Sweeney in continuing the interview in his 4 presence. I am surprised at his attitude in this letter, of which I 5 have only recently become acquainted with. 6 Mr. McMullen then states in his letter 7 that Mrs. McConnell was released later that evening and called to our offices. 8 She was obviously in a very distressed state as a result of the appalling 9 methods of interrogation employed by the interrogating officers. I find 10 this unusual for two reasons. 11 1. If Mrs. McConnell was interviewed in the appalling methods as alleged 12 Mr. Sweeney and Mrs. McConnell, I'm sure that she would have mentioned it 13 to the Member in Charge of the station prior to her leaving same. 14 2. Mr. Sweeney or Mr. McMullen would 15 not have waited until 23rd December 1996, 19 days later, to complain about 16 the alleged appalling treatment of his client. 17 Mrs. McConnell was not abused mentally 18 and physically and her hair pulled, as alleged by Mr. McMullen, while I was 19 present in the interview room. She was not shown any photographs of the body 20 of Richard Barron, as is alleged, or had them pushed in her face while I was 21 present in the interview room. During my time in the interview room, I did 22 not see any of the aforementioned photographs in the possession of any 23 member. It is untrue to say that any member informed Mrs. McConnell that her 24 husband had been unfaithful to her. I was present in the interview room with 25 Garda Joan Gallagher and Detective Garda Dooley and none of us were 26 acquainted, to the best of my knowledge, with either Mr. Or Mrs. 27 McConnell or indeed any person in Raphoe and it would have been 28 impossible for us to claim any knowledge of their marital affairs. 29 During my interviews with 10 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 Mrs. McConnell on 4th December 1996, at Letterkenny Garda Station, I treated 2 her in accordance with the rules laid down in the Garda Custody Regulations 3 1987, and I did not assault, mistreat or degrade her in any fashion and no 4 other member did so in my presence. I was very surprised to become aware 5 months after her arrest that my colleagues and myself were accused of 6 these outrageous allegations. I understand that since Mr. McMullen's 7 letter on 23rd December 1996, Mrs. McConnell has made further 8 allegations against my colleagues and myself, in that we were accused of 9 forcing her to kneel down and pray to her dead father and of putting on and 10 off the lights and that I was accused of pushing her and spitting into her 11 face. I am surprised at this. I am not guilty of any of these amazing 12 accusations by Mrs. McConnell and I did not witness any other member abusing 13 Mrs. McConnell in my presence in the interview room. 14 I am at a loss as to why Mrs. McConnell 15 did not inform Mr. McMullen of these very serious allegations on her visit 16 to his office, or did Mr. McMullen not perceive them serious enough to list 17 them among her complaints in his letter of 23rd December 1996. It appears that 18 Mrs. McConnell's complaints have gotten more serious as time goes on. I wish 19 to state that it has been established that Mrs. McConnell knowingly lied in 20 her interviews with Detective Garda Dooley and myself on 4th December 1996 21 at Letterkenny Garda Station, in relation to numerous material facts 22 with reference to the account of her movements on the morning of the death 23 of Richard Barron. I believe that Mrs. McConnell has made these serious 24 allegations against my colleagues and myself in the belief that it would 25 frustrate the investigation into the death of Richard Barron, in which both 26 of them are suspects. Mrs. McConnell has an accessory after the fact." 27 28 29 That is the relevant segment of the statement made by 11 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 Detective Sergeant White back on 2nd June 1998. 2 3 The same statement contains a complete denial of the 4 allegation made by Mrs. Brolly, which can be seen at 5 pages 18 to 19 of the statement of 7th June. Again, 6 it's appropriate to quote what was said on that 7 occasion. 8 9 On 26th February 1998, Detective Sergeant White says: 10 11 "I was served with a total of nine complaints emanating from the McBrearty 12 family and relations by Chief Superintendent Carey. I wish to 13 express my concern over the time delay involved and the service of these 14 documents as some of them date back to incidents which allegedly took place on 15 4th December 1996. I now intend to deal with each complaint separately. 16 In relation to the complaints made by 17 Mrs. Catriona Brolly number B2CD 1031 of '97 concerning her detention on the 18 4th December 1996 at Letterkenny Garda Station I wish to state that I did 19 interview Mrs. Brolly on that date accompanied by D/Garda Dooley and Garda 20 Joan Gallagher. I was aware that Mrs. Brolly was being detained under 21 the provisions of Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1984, on suspicion 22 of being involved in the murder of Richard Barron on the 14th October 1996 23 as an accessory after the fact. Mrs. Brolly was treated in accordance 24 with the Garda custody regulations 1987. I did not mistreat Mrs. Brolly 25 in any way either physically or mentally. I can state quite clearly 26 that nobody else mistreated Mrs. Brolly in any way either physically or 27 mentally while she was in my presence. During her period of detention I made 28 written memos of interview of our conversations with Mrs. Brolly. She 29 did not at any stage during our interviews indicate that she was 12 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 unhappy with the way in which she was treated while in the interview room. I 2 understand Mrs. Brolly had claimed that some Garda threatened to take her 3 waines or children away from her and that they threatened to have her mother 4 arrested. Both of these accusations are completely false and malicious. I 5 did not ever threaten to do either and neither did any other member in my 6 presence. I was not aware until several months after her detention that 7 Mrs. Brolly had any problem with her detention on 4th December 1996, or the 8 way in which she was treated. I was extremely surprised to become aware of 9 this as I was of the opinion that we had parted on good terms despite the 10 fact that she had been a prisoner. 11 From perusal of Mr. McMullen's letter on 10th December 1996 I see that 12 Mrs. Brolly later complained that her hair had been pulled by a female Garda 13 during questioning. I can state with certainty that Mrs. Brolly's hair was 14 not pulled and that she was not mistreated in any way while I was in 15 the interview with her. I found that Garda Gallagher treated Mrs. Brolly 16 with respect, as did Detective Garda Dooley and myself throughout the 17 interviews. 18 I also understand that Mrs. Brolly states that she was informed that she 19 would not be released unless she signed a form stating that she did not have 20 any complaints to make. This is ludicrous. Mrs. Brolly left 21 Letterkenny Garda Station after willingly signing a form stating that 22 she did not have any complaints because she could not have made -- sorry, 23 because she could not have had any possible complaint regarding her 24 treatment. As I previously stated she appeared to me to be on good terms with 25 the members at the time of her release." 26 27 28 That is the relevant quote from Detective Sergeant 29 White's statement concerning Mrs. Brolly's detention. 13 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 2 This remained Detective Sergeant White's case and was 3 implicitly reasserted by his denial of 30th March 4 2006. It now appears, however, that following 5 further consideration Detective Sergeant White wishes 6 to admit to the abuse and mistreatment of Mrs. Roisin 7 McConnell and Mrs. Katrina Brolly, as alleged in 8 their accounts and that of Detective Garda John 9 Dooley in respect of the core of their allegations. 10 There remain differences and on certain points he 11 maintains an adamant denial, such as his denial that 12 he ever made contact, physical contact, by pushing or 13 otherwise with the two women. His account 14 nevertheless broadly and specifically tallies with 15 their main allegations and the account of Detective 16 Garda Dooley. 17 18 What follows is his new statement. If it is true, 19 and that's a matter for you, sir, it confirms not 20 only a sorry saga of mistreatment and abuse of these 21 ladies but purports also to convey on the part of a 22 senior investigating officer who he names, Detective 23 Superintendent Joseph Shelly, that it was made clear 24 to him when conducting these interviews that his role 25 was to break the persons to be interviewed for the 26 purpose of corroborating the suspicions then held by 27 the Garda Siochana, that Mr. Frank McBrearty Junior 28 and Mr. Mark McConnell were involved in the death of 29 the late Mr. Barron. Detective Superintendent 14 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 Shelly, he said, made it quite clear that these 2 results were expected. 3 4 It's as well I think, sir, just then to let the 5 statement speak for itself and to read it into the 6 record. 7 8 This is a statement of Detective Sergeant John White 9 made on the 25th March 2006 following a request from 10 the Tribunal to reply to a statement made by 11 Detective Garda John Dooley on the 14th October 2005. 12 And the statement reads: 13 14 "I wish to preface this statement by apologising to Roisin McConnell and 15 Katrina Brolly. I wish to apologise for the delay in providing this 16 statement. I'm asking the Tribunal for its indulgence in this respect as I was 17 totally engrossed in assisting with the preparations of the submissions on the 18 previous module and I also had some personal difficulties. 19 I broadly agree with the statement made 20 by Garda Dooley. I do however take issue with some of the detail and 21 emphasis contained in his statement. Similarly, I broadly agree with the 22 statements of Roisin McConnell and Katrina Brolly. No proper notes were 23 kept regarding some of the interviews of Roisin McConnell and Katrina Brolly. 24 I cannot recall the detail of the words and exchanges which passed between us 25 but I agree that they were broadly as outlined by these two ladies. I 26 acknowledge that the language used was abusive, excessive, and inappropriate. 27 It is conceded that the custody regulations, both in their letter and 28 spirit, were breached. I fully accept that my conduct in this regard fell far 29 below any acceptable standard. 15 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 2 I agree that the following incidents occurred: 3 Photographs of Richard Barron deceased 4 were shown to the prisoners. 5 Allegations of infidelity by Mark McConnell were made to 6 Mrs. McConnell and Mrs. Brolly. 7 It was suggested to the prisoners that Frank McBrearty was the main focus of 8 our investigation. 9 Mrs. Brolly was denied access to her husband. 10 A chair was roughly skidded across the 11 interview room. 12 Intemperate and insulting language was used. 13 Lights were switched on and off. 14 Information was deliberately kept out 15 of the interview notes. 16 The reference to Mrs. McConnell's father's grave is correct. 17 I made a false statement to Chief 18 Superintendent Carey on 2nd June 1998. 19 With regard to Garda Dooley's statement I wish to state the following: 20 The photographs were present and shown 21 to the prisoners. 22 Roisin McConnell was threatened that if convicted her children could be taken 23 into care. 24 It was suggested to Roisin McConnell that she was under the influence of 25 Frank McBrearty Senior. 26 The questioning was intense. She was told to stand and stop smoking. 27 Her chair was cast across the floor. 28 Voices were raised and abusive language 29 used. 16 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 Roisin McConnell was told that if she told the truth, she could save herself 2 years in prison. 3 It was suggested to Mrs. Brolly that she was being bribed by the McBrearty's 4 and that she was scared of them. 5 I categorically deny that I assaulted or laid hands on Roisin McConnell or 6 Katrina Brolly. In particular, I deny that I pushed, shouldered, unseated or 7 had any physical contact with Roisin McConnell. I did not break wind in her 8 face. I did not spit at her. I did not push photographs into her face. I 9 did not call her Satan. I deny that I threatened to have Mrs. Brolly's mother 10 arrested. 11 I wish to state that I was nominated initially to arrest and interview 12 Mrs. Roisin McConnell. I did not know her. I was conversant from newspaper 13 and media reports surrounding the events relative to the death of 14 Mr. Barron. I had no knowledge of the information gathered by the 15 investigation teams prior to the evening of 2nd December 1996. I now 16 accept that Mrs. McConnell was wrongly arrested. 17 Prior to any official briefings, I was 18 told by Detective Superintendent Shelly and Detective Inspector McGinley upon 19 my arrival at Letterkenny Garda Station that they were absolutely satisfied 20 that Mr. Frank McBrearty Junior and Mr. Mark McConnell were responsible for 21 Mr. Barron's death. I knew Detective Superintendent Shelly very well, having 22 served with him on the murder squad, and I was aware that he was extremely 23 experienced and I trusted his judgment. I was assured that a very comprehensive 24 investigation had been carried out. I firmly believed that those he accused 25 were guilty. 26 At the briefing carried out and as detailed by Garda Dooley, a very 27 comprehensive and detailed account was related by the senior officers present, 28 all three complementing, reinforcing and elaborating on their findings. 29 This resulted with my being convinced 17 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 as was everyone else in the room that the late Mr. Barron had been murdered 2 by Frank McBrearty Junior and Mark McConnell. The suspects, Roisin 3 McConnell and Katrina, were identified as accessory in "the murder". It was 4 believed by everyone that various persons then about to be arrested had 5 valuable information about the murder based on the information and belief 6 already held by the three senior officers. 7 The mood in the Garda station was one 8 of high excitement and anticipation at the prospect of solving the murder. It 9 was made clear to me that my role was to break the persons being interviewed 10 for the purpose of corroborating the suspicions of An Garda Siochana. All 11 persons involved at this stage subscribed to the view that our line of 12 enquiry was correct. I was in no doubt that the interviews should be of a 13 strident and aggressive nature. While strident and aggressive were not used, 14 it was quite clear that results were being expected if not demanded. This 15 was made quite clear to me by Detective Superintendent Shelly. I reiterate 16 that I did not know any of the parties and my only concern was to carry out 17 the duties imposed on me in an effort to further the successful prosecution 18 of the case. I understood that I was to adopt a hard line in relation to the 19 interrogation. In retrospect I acknowledge that I approached the task 20 believing Roisin McConnell to be guilty. I now accept that this was 21 unfair and improper. 22 I was reassured by the fact that when questions were raised by Sergeant 23 Brendan Roache relative to the validity of the arrest of Roisin McConnell, 24 Detective Superintendent Shelly informed us that all was in order and 25 this had been endorsed by the Director of Public Prosecutions. After the 26 conference and before the arrest I sought further clarification on this 27 point from Detective Superintendent Shelly and Detective Inspector McGinley 28 and they confirmed that the power of arrest was valid and that I need have 29 no qualms in relation to my position. This conversation took place in the 18 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 conference room some time after the conference had ended. There was a 2 lingering query in my mind but this was allayed by an inspector who was in 3 Donegal on BSE duties, I believe he was from Galway, to other members and 4 myself in the detective branch office. 5 I had been supplied with details of telephone records in relation to 6 outgoing calls from Mr. Eunan Brolly's house and I had been warned by 7 Detective Garda O'Toole and Detective Inspector McGinley not to include 8 reference to them in the forthcoming notes of interview, as they had been 9 obtained in an authorised manner and the investigation team did not want any 10 irregularities recorded, lest same would become a detrimental issue in a 11 trial. I accepted this and all other suggestions as being a direct and 12 intentional suggestion that any notes taken at the interviews should be 13 devoid of any suggestion of improper procedures during the course of the 14 interviews. I accept that it is improper having regard to the keeping 15 of the record and the custody regulations. I acquiesced and this is 16 regretted. It is not, however, unusual as in my experience many items are 17 withheld from the record of interviews. This can be demonstrated in many 18 criminal trials when one compares the length and number of questions and 19 answers memos with the time allotted for the interviews. I must however 20 acknowledge my own wrongdoing in this regard. 21 The first two interviews with Roisin 22 McConnell were normal and I took detailed notes during both, as 23 confirmed by Garda Dooley. As the interviews progressed it became clear 24 that Roisin McConnell had been telling lies and this was and is clear from the 25 notes taken as at that time. The investigation was a murder 26 investigation. Going into the third interview, my frame of mind and that of 27 Garda Dooley had altered in that we were now dealing with an uncooperative 28 interviewee, who was treating the matter with a certain amount of 29 derision and who was being cheeky and defiant and who had clearly told us 19 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 some lies. During the course of this interview voices were indeed raised and 2 the tone of the questioning was aggressive and forthright. 3 When she insisted that she was telling 4 the truth, I asked her to swear it on her father's grave. She then said that 5 she would pray to her father and ask him for guidance. She did so. There 6 was a reference by me to praying to Richard Barron. There was a short 7 silent moment or two and she said that she had prayed to her father and that 8 he had told her that she was telling the truth all along. My voice was 9 deliberately more aggressive but I was not shouting. I accept that this 10 exchange is bizarre. 11 No interview of any prisoner or any witness is carried out in a "tea party" 12 atmosphere as the purpose is to elicit information from persons who are either 13 reluctant, uncooperative or simply lying. Solicitors are absent during 14 interview and the purpose of the detention and its duration are to give 15 the Gardaí adequate time for the Gardaí to, among other things, turn the 16 witness. My job was to ascertain answers to the questions put and 17 explanations as to the conflicts in their answers." 18 19 20 At this stage, sir, it's perhaps relevant to break 21 for a short time and note that it is your legal 22 team's intention to formally request from the Garda 23 Siochana and in particular headquarters, detail of 24 the usual procedures which it is expected that would 25 be applied in the carrying out of interviews and 26 whether there is any handbook as exists in other 27 jurisdictions in relation to the conduct of 28 interviews and whether there is any ethical direction 29 give in that regard. 20 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 CHAIRMAN: Very good. We'll rise for 2 five minutes. 3 4 5 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 21 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED, AS FOLLOWS, AFTER THE SHORT 2 ADJOURNMENT: 3 4 MR. McDERMOTT: Sir, the statement 5 continues: 6 7 "I do take issue with Roisin McConnell, Katrina Brolly and Garda Dooley in some 8 regards: 9 In relation to the photographs, I wish to state that these were in the room. 10 I did not bring them into the room and I do not have any memory of telling 11 Garda Dooley covertly to get them from the incident room. It is however an 12 irrelevance as the photographs were clearly in the room and they were shown 13 by me to Roisin McConnell. I did show them aggressively to her. I most 14 certainly did not push them into her face. I did this for the purpose of 15 bringing home the seriousness of the situation to her, as she was treating 16 the situation in "a couldn't care less attitude". We showed them out of 17 frustration rather than malice and I did not anticipate the detrimental 18 effect that these quite obviously had on her. I also did so on the basis 19 that the entire investigation team believed we were on the right track. 20 The recording of the showing of the 21 photographs was not included in the notes of interview. This was so that 22 the notes would not reflect adversely on me or on the interview and on the 23 investigation. I am satisfied that my perception in relation to the note 24 taking was the prevailing, if incorrect practice at the time. I was and am of 25 the view that the photographs were made available to each investigation team on 26 the same basis and not recorded for the same reasons. The same process was 27 used in relation to the telephone records. I acknowledge that these 28 photographs should not have been shown to the prisoners. 29 Garda Dooley did turn off and on the 22 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 lights in the room during the last interview. I did not instruct him to 2 do this and I did not have any foreknowledge of his intention to do 3 so. Neither did I ask him to desist in doing so. I should have. I was there 4 and am therefore equally responsible. 5 I was not aware that Sergeant Joseph Hannigan came to the door of the 6 interview room, as described by Garda Dooley. I was aware that Garda Dooley 7 was checking into the background of Roisin McConnell but I was not aware 8 that he had spoken to Sergeant Hannigan. I do remember that Garda 9 Dooley was suggesting to Roisin McConnell that her husband Mark was 10 having an extramarital relationship. 11 I confirm that it was put to Mrs. McConnell in crude terms that her 12 husband was having an affair. Garda Dooley had earlier told me that he 13 would use whatever information that he had acquired relative to Mark 14 McConnell's sex life in an effort to get Roisin to agree that her husband 15 was not with her in Brollys' house during the early hours of 14th October 16 1996, which we suspected to be the case. I did not instruct Garda Dooley 17 to make this suggestion to her and we did not come to prior agreement that he 18 would do so. I was however in the room when this allegation was put. I agreed 19 with this line of questioning. This type of questioning is not uncommon. 20 The suggestion that Mark McConnell was 21 having a relationship with another woman did not seem to affect Roisin 22 McConnell in any way and she was scornful of the suggestion. I did not 23 include this matter in the notes for the same reason, as I did not include 24 the matters relating to the telephone records and the photographs. 25 I cannot recall referring to the word 26 stabbing to Mrs. McConnell. I am speaking from recollection and I cannot 27 say for definite whether or not words with a similar meaning to the words 28 stabbing were used. It should not have occurred and if it did so, I apologise 29 for saying it and I admit that if it did happen, it was unfair and 23 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 intemperate. 2 I accept that I asked Mrs. McConnell to stand and stop smoking. When she stood 3 up I skidded the seat upon which she had been seated across the floor of the 4 interview room. I did this in aggressive fashion. 5 I may have used the words lying bitch. 6 This would not be unusual language in an interview situation with an 7 uncooperative and obstructive witness in relation to a serious matter such as 8 the investigation of murder. 9 I wish to state that in relation to murder and serious crime 10 investigations, the method employed with Roisin McConnell was similar to 11 that used on other occasions by myself and other interviewers over the years. 12 when the McConnell interviews ended I 13 was informed at approximately 10p.m. that Garda Dooley and myself were to 14 interview Katrina Brolly. I was mentally and physically exhausted at 15 this stage and voiced my reluctance to either Detective Superintendent Shelly 16 or Detective Inspector McGinley to carry out this interview. My fatigue 17 did affect my judgment as the night wore on. 18 19 I was ordered to carry out the interview with Garda Dooley and I was 20 told that it would only be short because that in all probability she 21 would avail of her right to suspend questioning between midnight and 8a.m. 22 Unfortunately Mrs. Brolly did not wish to suspend questioning and this 23 resulted in her continually being interviewed all during the night. 24 25 The wellbeing of Mrs. Brolly was obviously not considered by anyone, 26 including me, and I am not using this for the purpose of defecting blame or 27 responsibility for the circumstances that ensued detrimental to the rights 28 of Mrs. Brolly. I was on continual official duty of an exhausting nature 29 for a period in excess of 25 hours. My objectivity was not helped by my 24 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 fatigue. In this atmosphere and particularly late at night it is 2 natural that tempers become frayed, fuses are shortened and things can go 3 awry. This does not excuse in any way the events of that night and I mention 4 it to provide some context from my point of view. 5 In relation to Katrina Brolly the 6 pattern of questioning was similar to that with Roisin McConnell and my 7 attitude was not any different. I accept I was the senior officer present 8 in the interviews and that a great proportion of the responsibility of 9 what occurred rests with me. 10 11 Garda Dooley in his statement states that Garda Gallagher pulled Mrs. 12 Brolly's hair. I did not see this happening. I have no reason to doubt 13 Garda Dooley's version of events. 14 15 During the interviews with Mrs. Brolly I was aware that there was a statement 16 of admission made by Frank McBrearty Junior to the murder of Richard Barron. 17 This greatly affected my approach to these interviews. 18 19 I admit that I made a false statement to Chief Superintendent Carey. I 20 acknowledge that this was wrong. 21 22 The statement that I prepared for Chief Superintendent Carey was two months 23 after Garda Dooley submitted his statement and he had sent a photocopy 24 of his handwritten statement to me prior to the making of my own 25 statement. My explanation for my false statement is that it was the easiest 26 way out of the crisis I found myself in. Also, I did not wish to do down my 27 colleague or myself. I refused to make any further statements as I was 28 uncomfortable with what I had done and did not want to compound this wrong. I 29 most certainly did not ask Garda Dooley to make a false statement. 25 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 2 On a date that I cannot recall, but prior to making of my statement to 3 Chief Superintendent Carey in Letterkenny Garda Station, Detective 4 Inspector McGinley advised me not to mention the telephone records and the 5 photographs and to deny their production. This does not however 6 absolve me of my obligation to make a proper and true statement. 7 8 I had been requested by my authorities to make a written statement for the 9 purposes of addressing Roisin McConnell's High Court action. I was 10 reluctant to deal with the matter and I did not wish to make another statement 11 that would be incorrect. I felt that if I made a completely truthful 12 statement I would be targeted further and that I would be letting down my 13 colleague Garda Dooley and others. 14 15 This matter came to a head in March 2002 but at a very difficult time for 16 me. I was attending at Sligo Circuit Court from 13th March 2002 for 17 approximately two weeks on foot of a witness summons served on me by 18 Mr. Conlon's defence team." 19 20 That is Mr. Bernard Conlon: 21 22 "I felt very isolated during this period and I was under extreme mental 23 and physical pressure. On Friday 15 March 2002 Inspector Michael Keane 24 approached me at this court and later on that date gave me Roisin McConnell's 25 Statement of Claim and requested a statement from me. On Friday 22nd 26 March 2002 I drove to Garda Dooley's home in Glenties after leaving Sligo 27 Circuit Court in order to discuss the Roisin McConnell case and the matter of 28 the bugging of Letterkenny Garda Station with him. 29 26 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 2 I informed him of my reluctance in making a statement relative to Roisin 3 McConnell's arrest and detention. He told me that he had made several 4 statements on the matter and that he was not going to change from his 5 position. I told him that I was not going to make another false statement 6 in relation to the matter. I wrongly felt silence to be the safest course. 7 This conversation took place in the sitting room of his house. 8 9 We then walked out to the back of the house and I opened the driver's door of 10 my car. I told him that I had made a statement to an inspector from Drogheda 11 in relation to conversations being taped in Letterkenny Garda Station and 12 that I had stated that he was present when I had met Sergeant Joseph Costello 13 on the 4th December 1996. Garda Dooley said that he had made a statement. He 14 then told me that he had stated that he had been present when we met Sergeant 15 Costello but that he had not included the fact that he overheard Sergeant 16 Costello and myself discussing the covert taping that was going on in 17 Letterkenny Garda Station on that date. I was extremely disappointed by this 18 and I asked him why he had left out the most important aspect of our meeting 19 with Sergeant Costello. Garda Dooley was reticent and murmured that he could 20 not put his job on the line. I told him that I was unhappy with the way 21 that he had handled the matter. I am relieved to note that Garda Dooley now 22 confirms this. I have at all times maintained that the interview rooms in 23 Letterkenny Garda Station were bugged. I suspect that the room assigned to 24 accommodate visitors was bugged and that James Sweeney's interview was 25 recorded. 26 27 28 I acknowledge that my conduct in these matters falls far short of an 29 acceptable standard. Despite this however I categorically deny spitting 27 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd. 1 at or breaking wind in the face of Roisin McConnell or assaulting her. I 2 must admit to making a false statement. I have found this to be extremely 3 worrying and it is utterly regretted. 4 5 6 I again wish to express my sincere regret for the stress and pain caused 7 to either Mrs. McConnell or to Mrs. Brolly due to my conduct in the 8 course of their questioning. I acknowledge that their treatment was in 9 breach of the custody regulations and their human rights. I fully 10 acknowledge that each of them is blameless in relation to the 11 investigation and the treatment of them by me is inexcusable. 12 13 I have read this statement over and it is correct." 14 15 It is then dated 25th March 2006 and signed by 16 Detective Sergeant White. 17 18 Sir, a number of issues still remain to be decided by 19 you but now in a completely changed context. The 20 statement made by Detective Sergeant White is perhaps 21 welcome but if it is true a late departure from the 22 lies which have been engaged in in the past, and the 23 Tribunal at this stage can only continue to exercise 24 the patience which has been perhaps tested over the 25 last number of years in this regard. But we still 26 welcome any further information or any further detail 27 from any source that will assist in getting to the 28 truth of the various allegations and the various 29 issues that remain to be determined by you, sir. 28 Gwen Malone Stenography Services Ltd.